Hey all,
So i'll try to make this as short as possible so that i'm not boring anyone here and besides i'm writing this from work computer...haha...
July 27th 2010, just prior to starting workout/dieting plan, i was was weighing in at 210 lbs....since then i've managed to lose 42 lbs (most of which is on body fat). I currently weigh 168 lbs and i've yet to reach one of main goals which was to have well defined abs.
I'm 25 with a height of 5'10"....i can already see the top two abdominal muscles and on a good day, top four...hahaha...well question becomes the following...when is weight loss enough and muscle training will take care of the rest? Reason i ask is because as i browse the internet i've noticed most people that have nice mid-sections are usually a tad bit heavier than i am. I, obviously, don't want to lose too much weight... initial goal is to reach 160 before i start taking creatine (since i know that the loading stage of creatine adds 5 lbs...approx.). But is 165 lbs a good starting point to begin muscle building workouts...and will mid-section (abs more specifically) grow enough to where i'll be able to see all eight abdominal muscles?
I'm at 5-6 meals a day but VERY little to no carbs (i understand that complex carbs are still an essential part of a diet and i'll start eating carbs once i reach target "weight-loss" weight) mostly lean meats and moderate fats. water intake is just above a gallon a day. I workout 6 days a week with 20-30 minute cardio all of those days. In an effort to not lose muscle mass while cardio training, i tend to follow cardio with muscle training four out of those 6 days.
Alright well there you have it...if any of the experts need to know more then please feel free to ask and i'll try to respond with as much detail as i can. Thanks to anyone that reads this and an even bigger thank you in advance to all that respond.
When is it enough?
Moderators: Boss Man, cassiegose
Re: When is it enough?
Weight loss & fat loss aren't the same..to SEE your abs you must be low in fat %.As I've read in other threads creatine is not recommended for beginners.Do your cardio AFTER the weights.If you deprive yourself of carbohydrates your energy level will suck, therefore undermining your ability to workout, build muscle and burn fat.Choose low GI carbohydrates.Another thing holding up progress may be the amount your working out, try 5 days a week.Good luck.
Perhaps a look at your daily food intake ? Also what TYPE of cardiovascular training are you currently doing ? Thanks.
Perhaps a look at your daily food intake ? Also what TYPE of cardiovascular training are you currently doing ? Thanks.
Re: When is it enough?
Bonnie,
First and foremost thank you for your reply...especially since it was the only one from a forum full of athletic junkies. I have toned down exercise routine because i believe it was taking it's toll on immune system. I did already know that fat loss and weight loss were two different things...maybe i should've been more specific. Touching on another point you brought up, I'm nowhere near beginner level BELIEVE ME!!! LOL. I worked out quite a bit when in HS, difference between then and now is that now i do A LOT of research on proper nutrition, supplementation, weight loss, and muscle building.
So the following is what i just recently started to do...3 day full body split routine and in between days i alternate between 30-45 mins of steady state cardio and 20-25 minutes of HIIT (aerobic). eating habits are in tack but just in case you want proof here it is...LoL...Mon-Sat it's pretty much the same
Meal 1 - 4 egg white, 1 whole egg, two (100% whole wheat) toast with low fat cheese (on the omelet) and low fat maple syrup.
Meal 2 - Plain Oatmeal made in non-fat milk, 1 tablespoon of honey, and a banana (either on the side or in the oatmeal)
Meal 3 - Lean meat...this typically changes from oven roasted chicken to top cut meats and even seafood on rare occasions. Oh and no carbs in this meal.
Meal 4 - Meal Replacement Bar...a complete one of course with all the appropiate proteins, carbs, and Fats (low saturated fat)
Workout
Meal 5 - post-workout shake
Well there it is and yes i am skipping on that final meal of the day, at least until i reach target weight (155 lbs.).
As far as bf%, well i get all kinds of numbers...the measuring device at the gym has shown me everything between 7.5-12...i just recently purchased Accufitness digital calipers (which suck...in opinion) and that keeps telling me anywhere between 5.0-7.5. In anycase i've decided to drop down to 155 and then start building up from there...obviously meal plan will change tremendously and i'll be supplementing properly (i.e. Whey, Casein, Creatine, and BCAA's).
Any other inputs on this would be appreciated...no input would mean i'm on the right track. LoL.
Thanks again Bonnie!!!
First and foremost thank you for your reply...especially since it was the only one from a forum full of athletic junkies. I have toned down exercise routine because i believe it was taking it's toll on immune system. I did already know that fat loss and weight loss were two different things...maybe i should've been more specific. Touching on another point you brought up, I'm nowhere near beginner level BELIEVE ME!!! LOL. I worked out quite a bit when in HS, difference between then and now is that now i do A LOT of research on proper nutrition, supplementation, weight loss, and muscle building.
So the following is what i just recently started to do...3 day full body split routine and in between days i alternate between 30-45 mins of steady state cardio and 20-25 minutes of HIIT (aerobic). eating habits are in tack but just in case you want proof here it is...LoL...Mon-Sat it's pretty much the same
Meal 1 - 4 egg white, 1 whole egg, two (100% whole wheat) toast with low fat cheese (on the omelet) and low fat maple syrup.
Meal 2 - Plain Oatmeal made in non-fat milk, 1 tablespoon of honey, and a banana (either on the side or in the oatmeal)
Meal 3 - Lean meat...this typically changes from oven roasted chicken to top cut meats and even seafood on rare occasions. Oh and no carbs in this meal.
Meal 4 - Meal Replacement Bar...a complete one of course with all the appropiate proteins, carbs, and Fats (low saturated fat)
Workout
Meal 5 - post-workout shake
Well there it is and yes i am skipping on that final meal of the day, at least until i reach target weight (155 lbs.).
As far as bf%, well i get all kinds of numbers...the measuring device at the gym has shown me everything between 7.5-12...i just recently purchased Accufitness digital calipers (which suck...in opinion) and that keeps telling me anywhere between 5.0-7.5. In anycase i've decided to drop down to 155 and then start building up from there...obviously meal plan will change tremendously and i'll be supplementing properly (i.e. Whey, Casein, Creatine, and BCAA's).
Any other inputs on this would be appreciated...no input would mean i'm on the right track. LoL.
Thanks again Bonnie!!!
Re: When is it enough?
Your welcome & in all fairness the others may have been waiting for the post of your diet
Depending on your bread, that could be as much as 40 - grams of carbs, albeit it is the morning meal, check your bread, for amount per slice, sugars also. I use oroweat flax, one slice is only 14 grams of carbs per slice. Ditch the syrup. Cheese in opinion will enhance fat retention. I try to make sure each of meals does not exceed 30 grams of complex carbs, which is what seems to work for me, but everyone is different.
How much oatmeal & what type ? Steel cut oats are harder to digest, making your body work harder. Make them with water, ditch the honey.
So is meal 4 the pre workout meal ?..If so that is the BEST place to put the carbs & the meal AFTER your workout, which seemingly you don't eat.
I personally don't eat those bars, anything that has " everything " in one bar reeks of processed to me, therefore the body doesn't need to work hard to digest it, never a good thing.
Check your shake to make sure it has enough carbs to aid in synthesis of the protein.
When is the last meal ? In relation to your bedtime or what time is the shake consumed at ?
Body still needs nourishment while you sleep, though admittedly the last meal of the day I don't consume whole grains either, BUT I don't workout at night.
As for the cardio 20 minutes of HIIT is sufficient IF you must add steady state, again 20 minutes is sufficient for a total of 40 minutes.
All that being said, if your body reading is that low, I don't know why you can't see all eight abs...I found that doing dead lifts, squats etc a huge impact on abs...so what kind of exercises are you doing ?
Depending on your bread, that could be as much as 40 - grams of carbs, albeit it is the morning meal, check your bread, for amount per slice, sugars also. I use oroweat flax, one slice is only 14 grams of carbs per slice. Ditch the syrup. Cheese in opinion will enhance fat retention. I try to make sure each of meals does not exceed 30 grams of complex carbs, which is what seems to work for me, but everyone is different.
How much oatmeal & what type ? Steel cut oats are harder to digest, making your body work harder. Make them with water, ditch the honey.
So is meal 4 the pre workout meal ?..If so that is the BEST place to put the carbs & the meal AFTER your workout, which seemingly you don't eat.
I personally don't eat those bars, anything that has " everything " in one bar reeks of processed to me, therefore the body doesn't need to work hard to digest it, never a good thing.
Check your shake to make sure it has enough carbs to aid in synthesis of the protein.
When is the last meal ? In relation to your bedtime or what time is the shake consumed at ?
Body still needs nourishment while you sleep, though admittedly the last meal of the day I don't consume whole grains either, BUT I don't workout at night.
As for the cardio 20 minutes of HIIT is sufficient IF you must add steady state, again 20 minutes is sufficient for a total of 40 minutes.
All that being said, if your body reading is that low, I don't know why you can't see all eight abs...I found that doing dead lifts, squats etc a huge impact on abs...so what kind of exercises are you doing ?
Re: When is it enough?
Good advice there...i think the two slices actually come out to about 40 grams of carbs. Considering the difference in body structure, i think 40 grams should be alright for me. But i do agree that i need to ditch both the cheese and syrup, only problem with that though is that i'm of deep Latin origins (where i use to eat more than 60 grams of processed sugars, aka bad carbs, per meal...LoL) so slowly but surely i'm losing those cravings and eventually i'll have absolutely no dependancy on processed sugars.Bonnie wrote:Depending on your bread, that could be as much as 40 - grams of carbs, albeit it is the morning meal, check your bread, for amount per slice, sugars also. I use oroweat flax, one slice is only 14 grams of carbs per slice. Ditch the syrup. Cheese in opinion will enhance fat retention. I try to make sure each of meals does not exceed 30 grams of complex carbs, which is what seems to work for me, but everyone is different.
half a cup with 1 cup of milk...Quaker - instant (for now) and again i agree on making it in water but that's only gonna make me add more honey to sweeten things up...LoL. Again, I'm trying to break free from sugar cravings.Bonnie wrote:How much oatmeal & what type ? Steel cut oats are harder to digest, making your body work harder. Make them with water, ditch the honey.
Yes this would be pre-workout meal...once i've dropped the weight and start bulking, i'll switch this to some other small meal with moderate carbs/protein (i was thinking nonfat cottage cheese with a slice of whole wheat bread)Bonnie wrote:So is meal 4 the pre workout meal ?..If so that is the BEST place to put the carbs & the meal AFTER your workout, which seemingly you don't eat.
I personally don't eat those bars, anything that has " everything " in one bar reeks of processed to me, therefore the body doesn't need to work hard to digest it, never a good thing.
Until recent changes shakes included simple carbs, whey and some fats (from natural peanut butter). As it stands, i'm just putting a scoop of protein in water/milk. I'll go back to old ways once target weight is reached.Bonnie wrote:Check your shake to make sure it has enough carbs to aid in synthesis of the protein.
Totally agree and i will be introducing a meal (protein and fats) 1 hour after post-workout shake and then another protein intake of casein right before going to sleep.Bonnie wrote:When is the last meal ? In relation to your bedtime or what time is the shake consumed at ?
Body still needs nourishment while you sleep, though admittedly the last meal of the day I don't consume whole grains either, BUT I don't workout at night.
Nope...just HIIT and a couple of abs exercises (upper, lower and obliques)...i'm not doing dead lifts right now but i am doing squats, 45 degree leg press, and lunges (each one on a different workout day). Yeah i don't know either but again i'm using a lot of BF equipment with relatively high degree of percent error so BF% could be completely off...LoL...I think i'm gonna see about getting it measured professionally via DEXA.Bonnie wrote:As for the cardio 20 minutes of HIIT is sufficient IF you must add steady state, again 20 minutes is sufficient for a total of 40 minutes.
All that being said, if your body reading is that low, I don't know why you can't see all eight abs...I found that doing dead lifts, squats etc a huge impact on abs...so what kind of exercises are you doing ?
Thanks again!!!
Re: When is it enough?
There is one more thing I noticed..where are the vegetables ? Meals need to consist of lean protein, carbohydrates, vegetables in some cases vegetables AND salad, plus of course healthy fats.
Re: When is it enough?
Oh okay well yeah I think most of abs is due to big compound workouts, like pull ups, chin ups, deads etc 
Re: When is it enough?
Veggie's?!?! What is that? You must be speaking a different language...LoL...nah but seriously though, that's something else i'm working on getting use to. Again growing up veggies weren't THAT important to us so now, consequently, i'm having difficulty introducing them into diet. No worries though, i know how important they are and i'll work hard to make sure that i get the proper servings per day.
As far as exercise is concern, i do a wide range of exercises; chin-ups, pull-ups, etc. are all part of the routine. One trick i have heard from a trainer though is to, what he called, "engage" abdominals whenever working out any other part of the body...this way you're ALWAYS working the abs even if your primary target isn't your abs.
Oh by the way here's a small screen shot what diet will look like when working on building muscle...
5:30 - Whey protein shake in water
6:00 - Omelete w/ toast
9:00 - Steel Cut Oats (thanks to your suggestion
) in water with a scoop of whey protein
12:00 - Lean meat, carbs from both whole grain and vegetable.
3:00 - Cottage cheese with fruit
4:30 - Workout (while sipping on some BCAA's)
6:00 - Whey Protein shake made with simple carbs (fruit), scoop of peanut butter, 5g of creatine, and all in water (maybe non-fat milk)
7:00 - Lean Meat, veggies and some healthy fats (more than likely, 1/4 cup of some kind of nuts)
10:00 - Casein protein shake made w/ water
Total target calorie count: 2500 with a zone diet (40/30/30)
Other Supplements would include Fish-Oil, Flaxseed Oil, Digestive Enzymes, Multivitamins, Vitamin C, and Green Tea Extract.
What do you think? Feel free to point out any flaws...everything will be received as constructive criticism and taken into consideration.
...and now i believe this topic has veered off course from what this section of the forum is about...LoL.
*Mod's you're more than welcome to move this topic to a different location*
Thanks!!!
As far as exercise is concern, i do a wide range of exercises; chin-ups, pull-ups, etc. are all part of the routine. One trick i have heard from a trainer though is to, what he called, "engage" abdominals whenever working out any other part of the body...this way you're ALWAYS working the abs even if your primary target isn't your abs.
Oh by the way here's a small screen shot what diet will look like when working on building muscle...
5:30 - Whey protein shake in water
6:00 - Omelete w/ toast
9:00 - Steel Cut Oats (thanks to your suggestion
) in water with a scoop of whey protein12:00 - Lean meat, carbs from both whole grain and vegetable.
3:00 - Cottage cheese with fruit
4:30 - Workout (while sipping on some BCAA's)
6:00 - Whey Protein shake made with simple carbs (fruit), scoop of peanut butter, 5g of creatine, and all in water (maybe non-fat milk)
7:00 - Lean Meat, veggies and some healthy fats (more than likely, 1/4 cup of some kind of nuts)
10:00 - Casein protein shake made w/ water
Total target calorie count: 2500 with a zone diet (40/30/30)
Other Supplements would include Fish-Oil, Flaxseed Oil, Digestive Enzymes, Multivitamins, Vitamin C, and Green Tea Extract.
What do you think? Feel free to point out any flaws...everything will be received as constructive criticism and taken into consideration.
...and now i believe this topic has veered off course from what this section of the forum is about...LoL.
*Mod's you're more than welcome to move this topic to a different location*
Thanks!!!
Re: When is it enough?
Only 30 minutes between protein doses ?..Make that 2.5 hours, so eggs OR whey, not both.
Body needs between .8 to 1.8 grams of protein per kg of body weight otherwise your putting stress on the kidneys & to knowledge excess protein won't help with muscle growth. Also as we have discovered recently in the forum if your CALORIC intake is in excess for the day, that same protein could possibly be stored as fat. ( fact from Lesplease )
Save or cook up some oatmeal for the 3 pm meal or whatever low GI complex carbohydrate, fruit in addition is alright but complex will burn slower, think Boss man has mentioned 2 calories of complex vs 30 calories from simple ( fruit ) are absorbed per minute ?..
Vegetables are full of nutrients, yes they are a must. I don't even count mine in calories, the more the better, though I tend to eat low carbohydrate content ones.
I don't even know what a BCAA is, then again the only supplement I use is whey powder 2 x per day. I have used creatine once, but bah really not fond of any chemicals in there that aren't natural, thats just personal choice though.
Hopefully Boss man will come along & correct anything I've typed that is incorrect. Cheers !
Body needs between .8 to 1.8 grams of protein per kg of body weight otherwise your putting stress on the kidneys & to knowledge excess protein won't help with muscle growth. Also as we have discovered recently in the forum if your CALORIC intake is in excess for the day, that same protein could possibly be stored as fat. ( fact from Lesplease )
Save or cook up some oatmeal for the 3 pm meal or whatever low GI complex carbohydrate, fruit in addition is alright but complex will burn slower, think Boss man has mentioned 2 calories of complex vs 30 calories from simple ( fruit ) are absorbed per minute ?..
Vegetables are full of nutrients, yes they are a must. I don't even count mine in calories, the more the better, though I tend to eat low carbohydrate content ones.
I don't even know what a BCAA is, then again the only supplement I use is whey powder 2 x per day. I have used creatine once, but bah really not fond of any chemicals in there that aren't natural, thats just personal choice though.
Hopefully Boss man will come along & correct anything I've typed that is incorrect. Cheers !
Re: When is it enough?
Excess Protein can lead to Kidney Stones and also the Nitrogen can be converted to Uric Acid and contribute to Gout.
Re: When is it enough?
Just a caution on the steel cut oats, buy at a market with bins, maybe a cup & cook it up, ( 2 c water to one cup oats..cook for 40 minutes or pre soak overnight & cook for 20 minutes ) to make sure you consider it edible. If not try the rolled oats first then steel cut. I personally love steel cut, however I also eat all grains & breads plain, I'm used to it Good luck.
Good luck.Re: When is it enough?
Right!!! But from understanding...BCAA's from supplements (like those in Xtend, Intrabolic, Purple Wrath, etc.) are free form and thus absorbed quicker.Lesplease wrote:BCAA is branched chain amino acids, and most whey proteins have them.
There's a saying i heard a couple of weeks ago and i now live by that same saying...that being, too much of a good thing can sometimes affect us negatively...i guess that would hold true for protein, huh? LoLBoss Man wrote:Excess Protein can lead to Kidney Stones and also the Nitrogen can be converted to Uric Acid and contribute to Gout.
That would be the RDA for your sedentary individuals but i'm far from sedentary. I keep hearing/reading different numbers about that intake though, most popular one though is 1g per pound(lb.) of weight. Meaning i would need an intake of anywhere between 160-180 g of protein. target calorie intake from protein is 30%...Bonnie wrote:Body needs between .8 to 1.8 grams of protein per kg of body weight otherwise your putting stress on the kidneys & to knowledge excess protein won't help with muscle growth.
2500 total daily intake x .3 = 750 Calories (from protein)
750 Calories / 4 Cal per g of Protein = 187.5 Calories (from protein) per day
...as it stands, without calculating 12 and 7 calories (from protein) i'm only at 124 g of protein...that would leave me with 63g to distribute between those two meals...approx. 31g per meal.
In fact, from some of the sample building meal plans i'm running into, that protein intake is rather low...but i think i'll treat this as starting point and see how i progress. What may change is carb intake though...i might make that 50% and drop fat to a mere 20%.
...and finally i think i'll switch 9 AM meal with 3 PM one...how does that sound?
Okay i think i've covered all that i wanted to cover...as usual please PLEASE feel free to correct me if i'm on the wrong train of thought here...i'm just a novice trying to learn from the experts around me (including you guys).
And as always thank you all again for your time.
Re: When is it enough?
Well I'm a personal trainer, Lesplease is downright a scientist & Boss man is a nutritionist, so I'm sure if total protein advisement was inaccurate one of them would of corrected me. That is what textbook says for EXERCISING people, but of course do as you like
Re: When is it enough?
Nope I'd not switch the meal, brain needs those complex carbohydrates especially after a long deprivation due to sleep. I understand where your coming from, I went through the " complex carbohydrates will make you fat " stage, suppose most of us do. Now I'm more fond of the energy from them & still losing fat % ..win win situation.
Re: When is it enough?
Less protein...got it...so I'll eliminate 5:30 AM protein drink.
What do you think about the 10 PM Casein shake? Necessary or still overdoing it still? I mean, i have heard that a protein source that doesn't break down as fast is good to have for while you sleep so that your body is still getting it's protein. Muscles grow while we rest so makes sense to feed it protein when it's probably recovering the most.
That would alleviate 48g of protein and brings me down to 76g of protein before 12 and 7 meals...allowing me, again, 30g of protein (max) per those meals.
What do you think about the 10 PM Casein shake? Necessary or still overdoing it still? I mean, i have heard that a protein source that doesn't break down as fast is good to have for while you sleep so that your body is still getting it's protein. Muscles grow while we rest so makes sense to feed it protein when it's probably recovering the most.
That would alleviate 48g of protein and brings me down to 76g of protein before 12 and 7 meals...allowing me, again, 30g of protein (max) per those meals.