Hi wasn't sure where to put this.
For the last few years I've had grinding in knees (going upstairs etc.) and of course when I do any squats, lunges etc. There is absolutely no pain or swelling and never has been but the grinding is getting louder each year. mom has rheumatoid arthritis - it started in her mid thirties, could this be the start of it for me?
Does anyone have any idea how it can be like this long term and getting louder/worse every year without any actual pain or discomfort etc.? I did Irish dancing (high impact especially on the knees) for years and years (practicing about 1.5 to 2 hours a day when I was in teens). Is it just wear and tear? Anything I can take to improve it such as cod liver oil or anything? Suggestions gratefully accepted. Obviously I hope it gets better with strength training routine as muscles get stronger, the knee will be more supported. Doesn't help that I'm so overweight ofcourse (but working on that!).
Thanks.
Noosk
Grinding Knees no Pain
Moderators: Boss Man, cassiegose
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
Could be something called Chondormalacia Patellae. Chondro refers to Cartilage, Patellae refers to softening / degredation.
It goes by other names including Runners Knee, Housemaids Knee, Patellofemoral Syndrome and Secretaries Knee, the latter relating to secretaries sitting in something called the Theatre position, a referance to when people sit in theatres. where the seat infront is so close, the leg has to permanently be kept in a posterior position, creating an acute angle between the Gastrocnemius and Plantaris in the upper Calf, and the Hamstrings.
It can be caused by running or excessive cardiovascular exercise. The grinding is caused as the Cartilage softens, allowing it to slide out ot the lateral side, (outer side), of the Knee causing a grinding effect.
The Cartilage would normally slide up and down, when utilising the Anterior or Posterior Cruciates, as Agonist / Antagonist tissues.
The way to combat this includes strengthening of the Leg muscles, reduction in the activites that may cause the problem, or some kind of adaption of the activites, that may cause the problem, so if you Squat at a 12 o'clock positon, switch the feet to a 10-2 position or vice versa. Perhaps stop doing step-ups, don't run up things like stairs or fairly sheer gradients, those sorts of things.
If you experienced any popping noises, that's usually Nitrogen pockets bursting. It's not an issue but if you're concerned you could make a small reduction in Protein intake, to see if that alieviated it, but realistically that popping noise if it happened is not a major issue.
If it is not C P, then it may still be a cartilage situation. Osteoarthritis as I'm sure you may be aware, is a degredation of the cartilage, eventually leading to Bone rubbing on Bone.
You could attempt to help the Cartilage by taking certain supplements that benefit it, like Cartazyne, or one like Hyaluronic Acid, as H A is a lubricator, skin component and Cartilaginous constituent. Other things like Chondroitin, Chitosan, etc etc may not be as efetive as they manly assist Osteo health, rather than Cartilage.
Other possiblities include increasing Vitamin C, as Vit C has many functions, including Immune system benefits, Iron boosting, heavy metal Chelator and producer of Collagen for Bones skin and Teeth.
Copper also assists with the way Collagen gets into Bones as well as assisting Iron. So you could then increase Copper based foods, like Shellfish, Nuts and Whole-grains, (assuming no allergy) and also Liver, Mushrooms, Beans, Beef, Chicken, and Veggies .
For Vit C ingestion, if you chose to, start with 500mg 1-2 x daily, either pre / post bed or both, depending on the daily quantity consumed. Any issues with normal C can be potentially resolved with a buffered kind. Should you wish to increase doses to 1g, that's up to you.
It goes by other names including Runners Knee, Housemaids Knee, Patellofemoral Syndrome and Secretaries Knee, the latter relating to secretaries sitting in something called the Theatre position, a referance to when people sit in theatres. where the seat infront is so close, the leg has to permanently be kept in a posterior position, creating an acute angle between the Gastrocnemius and Plantaris in the upper Calf, and the Hamstrings.
It can be caused by running or excessive cardiovascular exercise. The grinding is caused as the Cartilage softens, allowing it to slide out ot the lateral side, (outer side), of the Knee causing a grinding effect.
The Cartilage would normally slide up and down, when utilising the Anterior or Posterior Cruciates, as Agonist / Antagonist tissues.
The way to combat this includes strengthening of the Leg muscles, reduction in the activites that may cause the problem, or some kind of adaption of the activites, that may cause the problem, so if you Squat at a 12 o'clock positon, switch the feet to a 10-2 position or vice versa. Perhaps stop doing step-ups, don't run up things like stairs or fairly sheer gradients, those sorts of things.
If you experienced any popping noises, that's usually Nitrogen pockets bursting. It's not an issue but if you're concerned you could make a small reduction in Protein intake, to see if that alieviated it, but realistically that popping noise if it happened is not a major issue.
If it is not C P, then it may still be a cartilage situation. Osteoarthritis as I'm sure you may be aware, is a degredation of the cartilage, eventually leading to Bone rubbing on Bone.
You could attempt to help the Cartilage by taking certain supplements that benefit it, like Cartazyne, or one like Hyaluronic Acid, as H A is a lubricator, skin component and Cartilaginous constituent. Other things like Chondroitin, Chitosan, etc etc may not be as efetive as they manly assist Osteo health, rather than Cartilage.
Other possiblities include increasing Vitamin C, as Vit C has many functions, including Immune system benefits, Iron boosting, heavy metal Chelator and producer of Collagen for Bones skin and Teeth.
Copper also assists with the way Collagen gets into Bones as well as assisting Iron. So you could then increase Copper based foods, like Shellfish, Nuts and Whole-grains, (assuming no allergy) and also Liver, Mushrooms, Beans, Beef, Chicken, and Veggies .
For Vit C ingestion, if you chose to, start with 500mg 1-2 x daily, either pre / post bed or both, depending on the daily quantity consumed. Any issues with normal C can be potentially resolved with a buffered kind. Should you wish to increase doses to 1g, that's up to you.
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
wow Bossman thanks for the response. Will look into it some more. I do think it's the latter as this has been ongoing for a few years now. Vit C I take 560mg currently but could up it and see does it help. Have upped wholegrains, nuts, chicken,mushrooms veg etc. since I started eating health so we'll see does it help as well over the next few months.
Like I said no pain, I changed squat from 12 to 10 to 2 like you said and it made it more comfortable, definitely worked the muscles more - may have been putting too much pressure on knees at 12 o'clock (boy am I feeling it today!) will look into HA and Cartazyne. Will make a trip to local knowledge health food shop this week.
Thanks once again - this place rocks!
Noosk
Like I said no pain, I changed squat from 12 to 10 to 2 like you said and it made it more comfortable, definitely worked the muscles more - may have been putting too much pressure on knees at 12 o'clock (boy am I feeling it today!) will look into HA and Cartazyne. Will make a trip to local knowledge health food shop this week.
Thanks once again - this place rocks!
Noosk
-
ultimatehlth
- ESTABLISHED MEMBER
- Posts: 231
- Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 8:17 pm
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
Yeah, I agree it sounds like Chondromalacia (osteoarthritis of the patella). The sound you hear is called crepitus. Sit high on a table with your leg hanging over the side. Put your hand on the knee cap and feel for grinding as you slowly raise your foot up to extension. If it feels like sand in the knee then this is exactly what is is because nothing else causes this sensation. This condition is very common.
In addition to the above persons excellent recommendations you can try wearing a chondromal strap to keep the knee cap riding in the right grove and therefore minimizing wear and pain. Also, omega 3 fatty acids 3 times a day will significantly help.
In addition to the above persons excellent recommendations you can try wearing a chondromal strap to keep the knee cap riding in the right grove and therefore minimizing wear and pain. Also, omega 3 fatty acids 3 times a day will significantly help.
Last edited by ultimatehlth on Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
Thanks UltimateHealth - I got some glucosamine and cod liver oil for the omega 3
there is 1g of cod liver oil, 210mg of omega 3 - it says once a day on it - should I take more than this given it gives me 100% Vit A and D?
also the glucosamine, has 600mg per tablet and says to take anywhere from 1 - 3 times per day - should I take three times? I'm circa 180lbs, work out 5 times a week (3 days weights, 2 days cardio)
I've upped the Vitamin C every second day (taking 1000mg) and next week or so hope to extend this to every day - I knew about the 'rrhea alright lol!!!uckily no symptoms yet thank god.
Thanks again for your input gentlemen, much appreciated.
Hope this thread helps others too!
Noosk
there is 1g of cod liver oil, 210mg of omega 3 - it says once a day on it - should I take more than this given it gives me 100% Vit A and D?
also the glucosamine, has 600mg per tablet and says to take anywhere from 1 - 3 times per day - should I take three times? I'm circa 180lbs, work out 5 times a week (3 days weights, 2 days cardio)
I've upped the Vitamin C every second day (taking 1000mg) and next week or so hope to extend this to every day - I knew about the 'rrhea alright lol!!!uckily no symptoms yet thank god.
Thanks again for your input gentlemen, much appreciated.
Hope this thread helps others too!
Noosk
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
Glucosamine has been proven to be very ineffective for Osteo based problems of the Knee. Recent report on Medicinenet confirmed it.
Things like Chitosan, or Chondroitin work well for Osteo problems, including genral bone issues, or Cartazyne or Hyaluronic Acid would be good for actual Cartilage based problems.
Only issue with Chitosan is, that being a Chitin carrier like Glucosamine, it is contraindicated in Shellfish allergy sufferers, becasue Chitin is in Shellfish.
Things like Chitosan, or Chondroitin work well for Osteo problems, including genral bone issues, or Cartazyne or Hyaluronic Acid would be good for actual Cartilage based problems.
Only issue with Chitosan is, that being a Chitin carrier like Glucosamine, it is contraindicated in Shellfish allergy sufferers, becasue Chitin is in Shellfish.
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
oh okay. I was talking to a seasoned runner the other day and he recommended it (the glucosamine). I'll look into the forms you suggest. You're amazing with your information. thank you so much!
Noosk
Noosk
Re: Grinding Knees no Pain
Check out Medicinenet if you like and see if you can find the Glucosamine thing in the archive. I lost some of the old e-mails I had, so can't source the link directly from e-mail updates.
The friend was doing a good thing. The Glucosamine won't have no benefit at all, but as I say the link I read just a few months ago, emphasised little benefit in relation to Knees I believe, as to whether it pertained to things like Hips, Shoulders, Elbows etc etc I cannot remember 100%, but I don't think so, so the friend was certainly well intentioned and the report is only months old, not years old so probbly it will not be widely quoted, plagerised or linked to via internet sources, too mch yet, if it ever does become that way.
The friend was doing a good thing. The Glucosamine won't have no benefit at all, but as I say the link I read just a few months ago, emphasised little benefit in relation to Knees I believe, as to whether it pertained to things like Hips, Shoulders, Elbows etc etc I cannot remember 100%, but I don't think so, so the friend was certainly well intentioned and the report is only months old, not years old so probbly it will not be widely quoted, plagerised or linked to via internet sources, too mch yet, if it ever does become that way.