I just started doing flutter kicks for lower abdominals. The first time I did them (monday) they were fine, it challenged abs but only abs. Then, on wednesday, when I did them, I had back pain during the exercise and throughout the day (when I used back). On the first day, back was flat against the ground and head was bent up (like it should be). I completed the exercise with no problem. But on wednesday, when I did it, I did it the same except back was kind of arched when I did it and I couldn't get it flat on the ground. arched back made back ache.
Flutter Kicks
Back Pain From Abdominal Flutter Kicks
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Baseballkid14
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Swanso and I don't agree on this point, but I will present case here:
Certain exercises for the abdominals will cause the lower spine to compress and create a lot of pain. The cartilage (which has no nerve endings) gets inflamed and the surrounding area grows painful. It is the compressing of the cartilage that causes the pain. Because the cartilage has no nerve endings you don't feel the pain during the exercise, but the inflammation (usually 12 to 24 hours later) does cause pain and it will take several days to pass.
The main culprits are:
1. Leg raises
2. Wheel out abdominal exercises
3. Planks
If the lower back hurts you can minimize the problems with leg raises (and flutter kicks) by placing your flattened hands under the glutes. This will reduce the compression on the spine and reduce the possibility of hurting the back.
Obviously you cannot do that with planks or wheel abs.
It is interesting to note that when wheel ab exercisers first became available and they discovered the number of back injuries that resulted the manufacturers could no longer get liability coverage and they disappeared from the market.
Later, on the principle of "acknowledged risk" they were able to come back.
"Acknowledged risk" is the concept that the buyer is buying something that is generally recognized as dangerous. A good example is a bicycle. Bicycles are dangerous, but the risk is well-known and so they are free from liability from falls or accidents (but not from injuries from defective manufacture or design). When recumbent bicycles first came out they did not enjoy that advantage and none of the larger manufacturers were willing to enter the field because of the liability.
You can get some additional support for the back by strengthening your torso, but you will still be compressing the spine to some extent. If you are susceptible to this sort of injury, then stick with the flutter kicks and put your hands under your glutes. Or do hanging leg raises and eliminate the risk entirely.
Certain exercises for the abdominals will cause the lower spine to compress and create a lot of pain. The cartilage (which has no nerve endings) gets inflamed and the surrounding area grows painful. It is the compressing of the cartilage that causes the pain. Because the cartilage has no nerve endings you don't feel the pain during the exercise, but the inflammation (usually 12 to 24 hours later) does cause pain and it will take several days to pass.
The main culprits are:
1. Leg raises
2. Wheel out abdominal exercises
3. Planks
If the lower back hurts you can minimize the problems with leg raises (and flutter kicks) by placing your flattened hands under the glutes. This will reduce the compression on the spine and reduce the possibility of hurting the back.
Obviously you cannot do that with planks or wheel abs.
It is interesting to note that when wheel ab exercisers first became available and they discovered the number of back injuries that resulted the manufacturers could no longer get liability coverage and they disappeared from the market.
Later, on the principle of "acknowledged risk" they were able to come back.
"Acknowledged risk" is the concept that the buyer is buying something that is generally recognized as dangerous. A good example is a bicycle. Bicycles are dangerous, but the risk is well-known and so they are free from liability from falls or accidents (but not from injuries from defective manufacture or design). When recumbent bicycles first came out they did not enjoy that advantage and none of the larger manufacturers were willing to enter the field because of the liability.
You can get some additional support for the back by strengthening your torso, but you will still be compressing the spine to some extent. If you are susceptible to this sort of injury, then stick with the flutter kicks and put your hands under your glutes. Or do hanging leg raises and eliminate the risk entirely.
you said what he wantesd to hear but i don't agree with this...i never know where you get this compression thing from considering your not loading anything lying on your back, least of all your spine
i think instead of compression you should be saying lumbar hyperextension which is the problem and this stems from weak core/hams and inhibited glutes from tight hip flexors, quads and over active erectors, it's not a back problem, the lower back is simply where the pain refers to
there is no "compression during" any of those exercises but a lot of lumbar lordosis / hyperextension and placing hands under your glutes only increases this, ecspecially when your in the bottom/straight body position
the problem is that his core is not strong enough or has enough endurance to keep activated the entire set where it should be braced in which the low back is flat on the floor but with the above postural/muscular imbalances, he and many can't do these which is why planks are one of the best core strengthening exercises going around
i think instead of compression you should be saying lumbar hyperextension which is the problem and this stems from weak core/hams and inhibited glutes from tight hip flexors, quads and over active erectors, it's not a back problem, the lower back is simply where the pain refers to
there is no "compression during" any of those exercises but a lot of lumbar lordosis / hyperextension and placing hands under your glutes only increases this, ecspecially when your in the bottom/straight body position
the problem is that his core is not strong enough or has enough endurance to keep activated the entire set where it should be braced in which the low back is flat on the floor but with the above postural/muscular imbalances, he and many can't do these which is why planks are one of the best core strengthening exercises going around
From personal experience I can state that leg raises and roll-outs will compress the lower back. It can be minimized by having a strong abdominals and strong hip flexors, but for some people this will always be a problem.
The available literature supports that position. Just because you don't have the problem does not preclude others from having it. It has to do with posture and genetics too.
Truly strengthing the torso will go a long way towards minimizing back pain from all sources and the torso should be a major emphasis in any workout program.
But for those that have back problems, there are much better exercises than planks and roll-outs. Even leg raises when supported under the hips may cause back pain. For those people I suggest hanging leg raises as these will not stress the back.
See: http://www.content4reprint.com/fitness/ ... k-pain.htm
The available literature supports that position. Just because you don't have the problem does not preclude others from having it. It has to do with posture and genetics too.
Truly strengthing the torso will go a long way towards minimizing back pain from all sources and the torso should be a major emphasis in any workout program.
But for those that have back problems, there are much better exercises than planks and roll-outs. Even leg raises when supported under the hips may cause back pain. For those people I suggest hanging leg raises as these will not stress the back.
See: http://www.content4reprint.com/fitness/ ... k-pain.htm
i have si joint problems which refers to low back so yes i do have those problems, but none of those exercises hurt me because:
a) i'm strong enough to do them...not just in the core but all over, they are full body exercises just about
and
b) i do them properly
most people do hanging leg raises with far too much lumbar flexion to compendsate for their inability to lift their legs with their core and if you saw them actually performed properly with no leg movement at all, just a pelvic tilt, you'd see that 99.9% of the time that they are performed wrong because people can't do them
a lot of things have changed in 40yrs packard when you started out in the game
a) i'm strong enough to do them...not just in the core but all over, they are full body exercises just about
and
b) i do them properly
most people do hanging leg raises with far too much lumbar flexion to compendsate for their inability to lift their legs with their core and if you saw them actually performed properly with no leg movement at all, just a pelvic tilt, you'd see that 99.9% of the time that they are performed wrong because people can't do them
a lot of things have changed in 40yrs packard when you started out in the game
I've read up on core and it appears to be nothing more than a new word for "torso", and working the torso (vs. working abs) is something I've advocated for many years.swanso5 wrote:search some recent core training then and be enlightened
But the issue is straight physics and geometry. I will give an example:
A barbell is made from hight strength steel bar. It can handle a lot of weight before failure.
If you replaced the steel bar with a piece of aluminum tubing and you load just 5 pounds on each end of the bar it will flex quite a bit as you lift it off the ground. As it flexes the upper side of the bar will stretch a bit and the lower side of the bar will compress a bit.
If you load sufficient poundage on the tubing the upper side will cease to stretch, but the lower side will collapse.
If you increase the wall thickness of the tubing it will take more pounds to make the same effect, but the compression on the lower end exists regardless.
The same with your body while doing leg lifts. The abs represents the upper side of the tubing, and the compression is on the spinal erectors (lumbars) and muscles attaching to the hips. But muscles can do only two thing: contract or relax.
If the spinal erectors contract they do not reduce the amount of compression. If they relax they don't either. A large mass of muscles will provide some support by the girdling nature of the mass.
Regardless of what strength you have in your torso (or "core") the compression will be exerted on the lower back. If you are prone to sciatica you will have some pain.
As described in earlier post you can reduce the amount of compression by supporting the hips with you hands. You can do nothing to reduce the compression with wheel-outs or planks even when they are executed perfectly. If they bother your back you have to use some other exercises for the torso.