Caloric intake on weight and rest days

[static_jacket]

I'm a 25 year old . 236 pounds 6' tall, not a lot of lean mass in there. I'm trying to cut the fat while gaining strength for work (I work in the heating and air conditioning business, I do a lot of heavy lifting). I'm not too interested in getting visible muscle, I'm more concerned with getting strong while looking lean, but aesthetics aren't main concern.

question is, what do you think about eating above, below, or at calculated maintenance calories in respect to carido/rest days and strength training days? I was reading some places to eat at a calorie deficit all the time, others say eat more ON weight training days. What about rest days? Should i be eating at a deficit on days directly after a weight training day, or does your body cannibalize your muscle when you do this? I plan on doing cardio most rest days as well, by the way.

I'd appreciate any feedback, feel free to ask me any questions that could help you give me advice.

[MatthewCocking]

Hi There,

I would like to start off by saying this is first post on this forum

I believe researching intermittent Fasting would be a good way forward for you. I personally use it and have achieved fantastic results. Begin the research with these two in this order:

Anthony Mychal
Fasting Twins

I would link you to the content however since I am new to the forum, I am not yet allowed to post links. Just Google them
With regards to the traning/off days eating, here is the suggestion from the above sources:

- On training days, eat roughly 10% OVER maintenance calories.
- On off days, eat roughly 20-30% UNDER maintenance calories.

The reason for this is that at the end of the week (depending on how many days you train) you will have achieved a caloric defecit, while still making good use of your training days for muscle growth and strength gains.

The final important note would me to make sure you are tracking the weight you are lifting. use a training diary or make use of the Bodybuilding com app to track the weights lifted. It is important to use "progressive overload" which is the process of gradually adding weight each week to your lifts in order to progress.

i hope this helps, and feel free to ask any other questions you have!

[Boss Man]

You can eat a slightly lower amount of calories on non-workout days yes, but you need to eat above the sedentary average on workout days and the sedentary average for adults is 2,000 a day, so you'd be better off having another 200-300 a day more than that, or possibly a bit more than that if you wanted.

However whatever amount you choose to eat, I'd go for that 200-300 lower than that on non-workout days.

[static_jacket]

MatthewCocking and Boss Man, thanks a lot for getting back at me here, and I'll have to look into the fasting deal. I guess I'm understanding the concept now of being under on cardio/rest days and being above on weight days. Now I'm just not sure how accurate the calorie calculators that I'm using are and if I'm really making any progress. I don't want all this effort to be in vain, and am dedicated to get healthy. I was looking into fitness trackers, but from what I've read, it may not be worth the money.

I went into detail on this thread, I could use your guys' input: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15877

[MatthewCocking]

Well with respect to the calculations, this is the calculator that I would plump for: 1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

This calculator will work out your calorie intake for rest days and workout days. It gives you exact figures, and allows you to input your goal.

One thing I would like to question though is your protein intake. I would be very careful with this. Generally as a rule of thumb I would advise 0.8g per lb up to 1.2g per lb. However, with your weight being 236 (or 233lb as I see in the other thread) I would not go for more than 0.8g/lb. This is based on the fact that when you start to get to the 200g level it is too much for a lot of people and begins to not be particularly productive.

As an example, I personally weight 183lbs. I generally take in 150-180g protein. I was previously on a diet that was very high protein, nearing 250-300g per day and this was too much. body was giving me the signals (some stuff to do with urine, some weight additions, pretty grim stuff some of it) but i didn't recognize them until i read it by accident. So now, I simply give body ENOUGH protein and can happily enjoy the benefits of muscle growth.

This calculator, if any, would be one that i feel i can trust. Always have, and it gives me good results

On a final note, and IMHO, the only reason for doing cardio unless you are specifically training for a endurance event, is fat loss. However, if you are controlling your calorie intake, there is literally no need for cardio. Your calorie intake will be low enough to do 'the damage' to your fat levels, while the weight training will be simultaneously increasing your metabolism through muscle growth.

So to summarize:
- Get ENOUGH protein, roughly 180g would be a good spot to start.
- Split the rest of your calories HOWEVER FEELS RIGHT on any given day. Follow your cravings.
- Count your calories and protein, don't worry about defining the rest. If you eat the right calories, no matter how you split carbs and fats you cant gain weight.
- Don't do cardio. Controlling your diet is sufficient. Cardio is simply a way for people to justify eating more when they aren't controlling calories IMHO.
- make sure to enjoy your life. Don't put "eating clean" before anything. If you want a ready meal or a mcdonalds, simply add in the calories and voila, its fine!

Hope this is of use to you!

Matt

[static_jacket]

Oh, yeah man, too high of protein is really bad for your kidneys. Body builders have been dying really young because of kidney disease. I was looking for macro calculators and the first one I found was from this celebrity status personal trainer who's calculators ended up with like, 65% protein and 5% fat.. which I found simply ridiculous, and now I know it's very unhealthy.

Ill look into that calculator when I get home, I can't pull it up on phone. Would it make it more accurate to get a BMI device and/or a skin fold caliper?

So do you think it isn't even worth doing HIIT type cardio? Or could I benefit from not eating the calorie difference from a workout if I do decide to do cardio? I can understand why you would just suggest not doing cardio, I suppose if you do it wrong you could end up cannibalizing muscle, thus very counter productive.

N big problem with calculators too is the big difference in projected calories between each tier of "activity level", would it be safe to just always put in 'sedentary'?

Again, I appreciate all the advice guys.

[Boss Man]

Too much protein can cause kidney stones and also lead to gout.

[MatthewCocking]

Oh, yeah man, too high of protein is really bad for your kidneys. Body builders have been dying really young because of kidney disease. I was looking for macro calculators and the first one I found was from this celebrity status personal trainer who's calculators ended up with like, 65% protein and 5% fat.. which I found simply ridiculous, and now I know it's very unhealthy.

Ill look into that calculator when I get home, I can't pull it up on phone. Would it make it more accurate to get a BMI device and/or a skin fold caliper?

So do you think it isn't even worth doing HIIT type cardio? Or could I benefit from not eating the calorie difference from a workout if I do decide to do cardio? I can understand why you would just suggest not doing cardio, I suppose if you do it wrong you could end up cannibalizing muscle, thus very counter productive.

N big problem with calculators too is the big difference in projected calories between each tier of "activity level", would it be safe to just always put in 'sedentary'?

Again, I appreciate all the advice guys.

Hi again,

Apologies for taking so long to get back to you.

it is ridiculous. There are so many trainers that appear to think that pumping up protein intake is a good idea because 1 it "helps build muscle" and two, it works as "a great replacement for carbs and fats". Horrifying to be able to put that in quote marks i know!

i would avoid BMI completely. Its inaccurate. i does not take into account muscle. You can have a 6 foot who weights 200lbs and is hugely fat and a 6 foot who is 200lbs almost purely muscle, and their BMI will be the same. Body Fat % is a much better measure. Generally it is okay to estimate. However, always OVER ESTIMATE you BF if you are estimating. For example. It is likely that i am 13-14% BF at the minute. However, for the sake of calculators I tend to put 15-16%. This is because doing so drops your advised intake slightly. Its just a safer bet than to underestimate and eat too much.

on the cardio front, it is ENTIRELY up to you. However, since you have also asked about the "activity level" thing, I would say avoid cardio and see how you get on. I personally do not do cardio at all. I use diet to lose and gain weight.

Cardio simply creates a bigger caloric deficit. A deficit that could be achieved by simply eating slightly less (of course, only if your goal is fat loss).

Some people do like to do cardio though, not only does it help with general wellbeing for some, it also allows for the consumption of slightly higher calories on said day. So like I say, its up to you. If you are having a day where you are feeling hungrier than normal, hit a bit of HIIT (pardon the pun) and then try to guestimate the calorie expenditure. Then feel free to eat it

The best thing you can remember is that fitness is completely long term. Obviously the weight you lift each week is set by short term goals. However these goals all amount to an overall long term goal. Eating 20 calories too much or 20 calories too little on any given day is not going to hurt in the long run. Be as exact as you can, without being silly about it

Final note, you did make me laugh when you said "cannibalizing" which was a little awkward with me being sat at work. I just got an image in head of someones stomach physically eating itself just for your future reference, its catabolize and catabolism. Cannibalism is eating people.

[Boss Man]

Cardio is useful however when combined with heavy lifting if you're trying to increase stamina to a degree, as well as mass building and let's face it how many 200lb bodybuilders can run a marathon?

You could also argue, that for some people not doing the cardio and reducing their caloric intake, could result in a moderate reduction in micro nutrients and may have a slightly negative effect on health depending on what they are and how much of them would be eaten on a given day when they were reduced.

[MatthewCocking]

Cardio is useful however when combined with heavy lifting if you're trying to increase stamina to a degree, as well as mass building and let's face it how many 200lb bodybuilders can run a marathon?

You could also argue, that for some people not doing the cardio and reducing their caloric intake, could result in a moderate reduction in micro nutrients and may have a slightly negative effect on health depending on what they are and how much of them would be eaten on a given day when they were reduced.

Yeah that is very true.. A counter argument might be, how many 200lb bodybuilders want to run a marathon?

And that also could be true, I guess it depends on the micronutrient intake they were getting before, i suppose that is down to the individual, but good shout!

[Boss Man]

Many 200lbs bodybuilders don't want to run marathons, probably because they realise it would probably be nigh on impossible to do that much training for it, combined with the heavy bodybuilding stuff, not over train and also preserve every last lb of muscle, with no detriment to their levels of lifting.