I hope the reviewer from ShapeFit was not duped into thinking universal helth car/socialized medicine works.
Of course the "show" from Cuba was the best they have to offer.
The idea of universal healthcare is that everyone EXCEPT THE WEALTHY get the same watered down waiting list kind of treatment they get in Canada etc.
Back in the day the United States had doctors who made house calls.
You know why we dont now!!??
Because the push towards socialized medicine, to centralize everything to put the government in control VIA ( LIMITED) TAX DOLLARS took AWAY THE INCENTIVE to "go the extra mile" on the part of the doctors.
When you limit someones pay they of course are not going to have the same go-getter attitude as they would let when you let them live up to their abiity
Say you wanted to lose 5o lbs and we're well on your way to doing so but your spouse kept eating all the goodies in front of.
Pretty discouraging.
Well the government does the same thing only they write laws backed up by the point of a gun to enforce those laws, kind of "debilitating" to the go-getters in life!
Socialized medicine/socialism appeals to those that think they can never do better and to the wealty who dont want the poor to riot against THEIR WEALTH and who, as wealthy people, already "have it made" and are AFRAID that others will surpass them so they use regualtions to keep the competition down
Sicko the Mmoore movie
Moderators: Boss Man, cassiegose
Insurance companies control your care now NOT THE DOCTORS
And with that stated fact ask the admin at the doctors office how much more paperwork there is now!
Have a problem?
Now the BOARD AT THE INSURANCE COMPANY decides if you should have the surgery despite what a doctor will advise.
DOCTORS ARE PAID BONUS FOR NOT PERFORMING, FOR KEEPING COST DOWN AS OPPOSED TO WHAT IS IN THE PATIENTS BEST INTEREST.
That is not the freemarket at work that is government dictates via insurance companies
Thats why the poor or the naive or the CONTROL FREAKS want you to vote people into office who want socialized medicine
Have a problem?
Now the BOARD AT THE INSURANCE COMPANY decides if you should have the surgery despite what a doctor will advise.
DOCTORS ARE PAID BONUS FOR NOT PERFORMING, FOR KEEPING COST DOWN AS OPPOSED TO WHAT IS IN THE PATIENTS BEST INTEREST.
That is not the freemarket at work that is government dictates via insurance companies
Thats why the poor or the naive or the CONTROL FREAKS want you to vote people into office who want socialized medicine
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kwithers2000
- STARTING OUT
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:26 pm
- Location: Tampa, FL
Sicko Opinion
I think the most important aspect to keep in mind is that Sicko is simply one of many opinions regarding our healthcare system here in the US. Michael Moore, like all of us, has an opinion and an agenda. Each of us brings our own unique backgrounds, experiences, and views to our opinions regarding any topic.
Most Americans are shamefully unaware of how our system compares to other systems available in other countries. I would even venture to say that most Americans are unaware that Europe and Canada even have a different system. Certainly, few are aware that we have one of the lowest life expectancy rates as well as one of the highest infant mortality rates of any industrialized nation.
The US system, as well as the many flavors of socialized healthcare being practiced around the world, all have uniquely different flaws as well as extremely intrinsic advantages. No system is perfect, and as a former healthcare insider, I can assure you the US system needs reform. The statistics on life expectance, infant mortality, and the number of uninsured Americans, is proof enough of that.
Whether the Canadian or European system of socialized healthcare is the 'answer' remains very much to be determined. However, awareness and education are the first steps to creating an informed population rather than our current state of blissful ignorance. Like or dislike, agree or disagree, love or hate, Michael Moore does help to start the dialogue. Thankfully, we live in a country where you, me or anyone else can write, produce, and disseminate our own documentary describing why our US system is better than any other. So, if you disagree with the Sicko documentary, get to work and I look forward to seeing another point of view in a theater near me soon!
Most Americans are shamefully unaware of how our system compares to other systems available in other countries. I would even venture to say that most Americans are unaware that Europe and Canada even have a different system. Certainly, few are aware that we have one of the lowest life expectancy rates as well as one of the highest infant mortality rates of any industrialized nation.
The US system, as well as the many flavors of socialized healthcare being practiced around the world, all have uniquely different flaws as well as extremely intrinsic advantages. No system is perfect, and as a former healthcare insider, I can assure you the US system needs reform. The statistics on life expectance, infant mortality, and the number of uninsured Americans, is proof enough of that.
Whether the Canadian or European system of socialized healthcare is the 'answer' remains very much to be determined. However, awareness and education are the first steps to creating an informed population rather than our current state of blissful ignorance. Like or dislike, agree or disagree, love or hate, Michael Moore does help to start the dialogue. Thankfully, we live in a country where you, me or anyone else can write, produce, and disseminate our own documentary describing why our US system is better than any other. So, if you disagree with the Sicko documentary, get to work and I look forward to seeing another point of view in a theater near me soon!
I personally haven't seen this movie as of yet, but I am Canadian and tell you that our healthcare system has it's good points and it's bad.
The good is that we don't have to wait to see if an insurance company approves of a procedure or not. The doctors along with the patient decide on the procedures. Our healthcare premiums are taken right out of our paychecks every week along with other numerous taxes that the government thinks they have to have.
Wait times in our emergency rooms are a minimum of 4 hours. Wait times for treatments of cancer and such can be up to 2 years, but aren't necessarily that long. Although the relief is if you need an emergency surgery there is no bill waiting for you when you get out of the hospital as the premiums coming out of our paychecks cover it before hand.
I still don't know all the ins and outs of our healthcare system as the govenment is constantly changing things. And now they want to privatize our healthcare which I am dead set against. Why mess with something that's working?!
Yes there are areas that could improve but overall I don't think we can complain too much about our healthcare. Except the wait times.
The good is that we don't have to wait to see if an insurance company approves of a procedure or not. The doctors along with the patient decide on the procedures. Our healthcare premiums are taken right out of our paychecks every week along with other numerous taxes that the government thinks they have to have.
Wait times in our emergency rooms are a minimum of 4 hours. Wait times for treatments of cancer and such can be up to 2 years, but aren't necessarily that long. Although the relief is if you need an emergency surgery there is no bill waiting for you when you get out of the hospital as the premiums coming out of our paychecks cover it before hand.
I still don't know all the ins and outs of our healthcare system as the govenment is constantly changing things. And now they want to privatize our healthcare which I am dead set against. Why mess with something that's working?!
Yes there are areas that could improve but overall I don't think we can complain too much about our healthcare. Except the wait times.
thanks from Canada for the honesty
There is a reason there are such waits.
Socialism doesnt work.
The fact that the USA now depends on the insurance company is just the next step in our march towards socialized medicine.
Only the freemarket allows the innovations and best care.
As far as the often stated, USA has the lowest infant mortality etc statistics dont tell the whole story.
We report stats that other countries dont dare as the media is ( more) controlled by the government than our media.
And in our media it is so liberally slanted/pro socialism that they make things up and wont even report both sides of stories.
Those are just arguing points.
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS are what steps are being taken to assure the best possible care and that is through the same system that made this country great,the reason people pour over the borders ILLEGALLY, to earn as much $ as they can to experience freedom FROM GOVERNMENT
NOT TO HAVE THE "GOVERNMENT" TAKE CARE OF THEM
Socialism doesnt work.
The fact that the USA now depends on the insurance company is just the next step in our march towards socialized medicine.
Only the freemarket allows the innovations and best care.
As far as the often stated, USA has the lowest infant mortality etc statistics dont tell the whole story.
We report stats that other countries dont dare as the media is ( more) controlled by the government than our media.
And in our media it is so liberally slanted/pro socialism that they make things up and wont even report both sides of stories.
Those are just arguing points.
THE ONLY THING THAT MATTERS are what steps are being taken to assure the best possible care and that is through the same system that made this country great,the reason people pour over the borders ILLEGALLY, to earn as much $ as they can to experience freedom FROM GOVERNMENT
NOT TO HAVE THE "GOVERNMENT" TAKE CARE OF THEM
The wait times are for non-life threatening illnesses and injuries. Like the parent who takes their child to the ER because they have the sniffles.
I've had emergency surgery in under an hour of arriving at the hospital. I really can't complain and can't expect those who haven't experienced our healthcare system to understand.
I'm not saying that cancer and the such is not life threatening but sometimes there just aren't enough doctors to go around, which accounts for the wait times.
If you don't agree just don't knock us just because we are Canadian. We're not as stupid as Americans think we are.
Fighting with insurance companies to get treatment is more stressful than having the government pay for our treatment. Personally I've had enough experience with insurance companies to know that I want to deal with them as little as possible. If government wants to foot the bill then that's fine with me.
I've had emergency surgery in under an hour of arriving at the hospital. I really can't complain and can't expect those who haven't experienced our healthcare system to understand.
I'm not saying that cancer and the such is not life threatening but sometimes there just aren't enough doctors to go around, which accounts for the wait times.
If you don't agree just don't knock us just because we are Canadian. We're not as stupid as Americans think we are.
Fighting with insurance companies to get treatment is more stressful than having the government pay for our treatment. Personally I've had enough experience with insurance companies to know that I want to deal with them as little as possible. If government wants to foot the bill then that's fine with me.
Canandian friend
whoa!!
Why accuse of problems with Canadians???
not even close.
But you make an error and a huge one:
THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT FOOT THE BILL THE HARDWORKING TAXPAYERS DO
And that was not just a mispeak on your part.
People all around the world, and I have been there
"forget that its people who work who fund the governments and that governments are just people.
People with their own issues/problems etc.
'So why let someone else "foot your bill"!!!???
There in lies the difference.
People understanable dont want to be "bothered" with certain things.
In a free society you shouldnt be "bothered" by others lives or their lack of taking care of themselves or their lack of education etc.
And while some will always have problems then the tax-free (religious) organizations "JOB" self appointed job is to take care of those in need.
Why accuse of problems with Canadians???
not even close.
But you make an error and a huge one:
THE GOVERNMENT DOESNT FOOT THE BILL THE HARDWORKING TAXPAYERS DO
And that was not just a mispeak on your part.
People all around the world, and I have been there
"forget that its people who work who fund the governments and that governments are just people.People with their own issues/problems etc.
'So why let someone else "foot your bill"!!!???
There in lies the difference.
People understanable dont want to be "bothered" with certain things.
In a free society you shouldnt be "bothered" by others lives or their lack of taking care of themselves or their lack of education etc.
And while some will always have problems then the tax-free (religious) organizations "JOB" self appointed job is to take care of those in need.
Not what I meant. I DO know very well that it's with taxpayers money that health care is provided. I'm not dumb. But it is nice not to have to worry about having a bill when I get home at the end of the day because it's already prepaid. Much like insurance only it's ME and DOC that decide which procedures are or aren't necessary. Not some faceless insurance company.
You dont worry about a bill whne you gethome
but a bill comes everytime you work and you pay for some drug addict who needs doctoring or a person who doesnt care about themslves etc.
If your ok with that, fine, but it violates HUMAN RIGHTS to make that burden someone elses burden
If your ok with that, fine, but it violates HUMAN RIGHTS to make that burden someone elses burden
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kwithers2000
- STARTING OUT
- Posts: 33
- Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:26 pm
- Location: Tampa, FL
It does not seem prudent, *jch*, to so hastily brush aside the opinions of others who are trying to give feedback of their experiences with different healthcare systems. If you want others to see value in your views, you must first demonstrate a sense of value for theirs, else risk marginalizing yourself.
It is a difficult argument to sell that there are absolutely no positive features of the universal healthcare model. To what extent you see it as an improvement and which features you perceive as positive is certainly debatable.
There are a few items that I feel are worth mentioning.
1. I think using the term 'socialism' and 'socialist' is entirely a 'fear' tactic. Here in the US, there are alot of 'social' government services provided to every citizen and no one calls them 'socialist' programs and certainly we do not refer to the people who support those programs as 'socialists'. Examples of these 'socialist' programs are public school systems, police & fire departments, food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, social security, and a laundry list of others programs. These aspects of life are considered basic human and societal needs. So, lets stop referring to people who are considering the advantages of a universal healthcare system as 'socialists'. .
2. We have to use metrics such as life expectance and infant mortality rates (or some other quantitative metric) as a measure of our 'quality of care'. It adds no value to simply state rhetorically that we have the best healthcare. By what measure? Virtually no healthcare provider would support that position. I have worked in healthcare for many years, and amongst the industrialized nations, there is no significant difference in how these metrics are reports. And you can be assured that every healthcare facility in the US is trying to make their rates are positive as possible. Yet, we are still in nearly last place amongst all industrialized nations in virtually any 'quality' metric. Most any reasonable healthcare provider here in the US would confirm this.
3. One of our biggest problems seems to be what they call 'highly leveraged populations'. This is essentially the idea that the extremely poor, extremely rich, and extremely healthy, all receive quality care in this country. For the most part, if you are extremely poor or old, the US goverment simply pays any bill submitted by a medical professional. Additionally, if you are extremely rich, you simply pay your own healthcare bills. I think most Americans feel that everyone, not just certain populations, should receive equal healthcare.
4. One of the biggest advantages in the US, throughout history even, has been our ability to spawn 'innovation'. We have virtually no peer when it comes to this, in opinion. As a country, we have discovered, pioneered, and developed a huge majority of all important modern innovations, in healthcare and even more broadly. Our creative and technological machine, is truly unrivaled.
The issue we need to resolve, it seems, is how to improve #3 while maintaining #4. No doubt, an easy solution does not exist. A creative and innovative solution needs to be found. Fortunately, we have all the raw material we need to find a solution.
I think I am reasonably well versed on many of the positive and negative features of our US healthcare system, but am extremely interested in learning more about the positives and negatives of other systems.
However, I think it is important to have a temporal argument with facts rather than name calling, fear mongering, and rhetoric. I know there are many members on this forum from several European countries as well as Canada, and I would truly be interested in hearing more of their perspective on the positives and negatives, as they see it, regarding their systems. And, *jch*, I think we are more apt to get open dialogue from others if we refrain from name calling, blatant rhetoric, or attacking their view/opinions.
Best Wishes!
It is a difficult argument to sell that there are absolutely no positive features of the universal healthcare model. To what extent you see it as an improvement and which features you perceive as positive is certainly debatable.
There are a few items that I feel are worth mentioning.
1. I think using the term 'socialism' and 'socialist' is entirely a 'fear' tactic. Here in the US, there are alot of 'social' government services provided to every citizen and no one calls them 'socialist' programs and certainly we do not refer to the people who support those programs as 'socialists'. Examples of these 'socialist' programs are public school systems, police & fire departments, food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid, social security, and a laundry list of others programs. These aspects of life are considered basic human and societal needs. So, lets stop referring to people who are considering the advantages of a universal healthcare system as 'socialists'. .
2. We have to use metrics such as life expectance and infant mortality rates (or some other quantitative metric) as a measure of our 'quality of care'. It adds no value to simply state rhetorically that we have the best healthcare. By what measure? Virtually no healthcare provider would support that position. I have worked in healthcare for many years, and amongst the industrialized nations, there is no significant difference in how these metrics are reports. And you can be assured that every healthcare facility in the US is trying to make their rates are positive as possible. Yet, we are still in nearly last place amongst all industrialized nations in virtually any 'quality' metric. Most any reasonable healthcare provider here in the US would confirm this.
3. One of our biggest problems seems to be what they call 'highly leveraged populations'. This is essentially the idea that the extremely poor, extremely rich, and extremely healthy, all receive quality care in this country. For the most part, if you are extremely poor or old, the US goverment simply pays any bill submitted by a medical professional. Additionally, if you are extremely rich, you simply pay your own healthcare bills. I think most Americans feel that everyone, not just certain populations, should receive equal healthcare.
4. One of the biggest advantages in the US, throughout history even, has been our ability to spawn 'innovation'. We have virtually no peer when it comes to this, in opinion. As a country, we have discovered, pioneered, and developed a huge majority of all important modern innovations, in healthcare and even more broadly. Our creative and technological machine, is truly unrivaled.
The issue we need to resolve, it seems, is how to improve #3 while maintaining #4. No doubt, an easy solution does not exist. A creative and innovative solution needs to be found. Fortunately, we have all the raw material we need to find a solution.
I think I am reasonably well versed on many of the positive and negative features of our US healthcare system, but am extremely interested in learning more about the positives and negatives of other systems.
However, I think it is important to have a temporal argument with facts rather than name calling, fear mongering, and rhetoric. I know there are many members on this forum from several European countries as well as Canada, and I would truly be interested in hearing more of their perspective on the positives and negatives, as they see it, regarding their systems. And, *jch*, I think we are more apt to get open dialogue from others if we refrain from name calling, blatant rhetoric, or attacking their view/opinions.
Best Wishes!
Right this is how it goes here in Britain, or as I understand it.
NIC's National insurance contributions, are payed by Employers, which means you are paying for the right to National Health Service, (NHS) treatment should you need it.
I have a private healthplan, which costs very little and ensures I can get quicker access to treatment, and in certain hospitals NHS people can't, or I get to stay on private wards attatched to NHS hospitals should I require it.
General income taxes fund our Government, of which depeartment of Health is assigned a proportion of Taxpayers revenues.
Hospitals and PCT's, (Primary Care Trusts), are given financial targets which they are obliged to meet as often as possible. This means making sure staff numbers / wages, and treatment costs, I.E. replacing worn out equipment, purchasing of drugs etc etc, also falls into the budget in an agreeable way.
This however can lead to problems, resulting from some PCT's not funding local hospitals in their area sometimes, with the necessary finance to afford the best drugs.
You can also get issues with PCT's regards tested drugs.
Many people in America like K W, may be aware of a Breast Cancer drug by the name of Herceptin. Unless it goes by another generic name in the U.S.
Herceptin was last year stocked in hospital facilties, but although it was already used in the U.S, due to 2 year trials not being close to finalisation here, Herceptin was not usable.
Someone did however win their right to have Herceptin, after it was revealed the drug, could give her 10 more years, and maybe a full lifespan, with no Breast Cancer, but as she would have to wait another 12 months, by that time the Cancer spread would be untreatable, condemning her to death.
The argument was put forward, in favour of potentially, (as of then), unconfirmed side effects.
The counter-argument being when you could die from Breast Cancer screw side effects, even if you go partially blind for example but live for decades more, better that than use a weaker alternative, and most likely suffer a 99% chance, of being dead inside of 5-10 years for sure.
Another problem here is things like Locums. Locums work part-time but get twice as much, as effectively doctoring can be done for 50% of every month with eqivalent pay as regular doctors, owing to Locums being mobile, and not practicing in a particular hospital or GP's, (General practicioners) surgery full time. So potentially it's more lucrative.
Although some doctors are on rotas anyway, so after 2-3 years, they may be reassigned to another hospital in the local area, or if they choose to move, or practice a specific type of hospital medicine not catered for at their current hospital.
Plus add to that private doctors, who can make more money, and the NHS has it's problems.
However for the most part, unless you go private, the NHS is free, and just funded by taxes and as explained above, NIC's deducted from pay via the employer, thus allowing most taxpayers, not to have to have any direct dealings, with tax authorities, offices etc etc, on such an issue.
Sometimes waiting times are long, and mistakes are made, and often patients in an out patients waiting are categorised. Obviously a gun shot vicitim, or someone who accidentally sliced off a Thumb at work for example, will get faster treatment than someone who is waiting, with a pulled Groin muscle.
Though mistakes are made, hence a few years ago, an old man lay on trolley for 6 hours and died.
Or other problems occur when people are wrongly diagnosed, and told they have a life threatening condition when they don't, or don't when they do.
One person a while back received, (I think a child), some Cancer treatment, and was overdosed on Radiation, causing permanent damage, and possibly eventual death if I remember correctly.
This system isn't perfect, but it's possibly the best in the world, and I wouldn't complain too much about it, except when it goes wrong sometimes
.
I know it's no picnic often for the people who work in it, but I cannot comment too much on that.
NIC's National insurance contributions, are payed by Employers, which means you are paying for the right to National Health Service, (NHS) treatment should you need it.
I have a private healthplan, which costs very little and ensures I can get quicker access to treatment, and in certain hospitals NHS people can't, or I get to stay on private wards attatched to NHS hospitals should I require it.
General income taxes fund our Government, of which depeartment of Health is assigned a proportion of Taxpayers revenues.
Hospitals and PCT's, (Primary Care Trusts), are given financial targets which they are obliged to meet as often as possible. This means making sure staff numbers / wages, and treatment costs, I.E. replacing worn out equipment, purchasing of drugs etc etc, also falls into the budget in an agreeable way.
This however can lead to problems, resulting from some PCT's not funding local hospitals in their area sometimes, with the necessary finance to afford the best drugs.
You can also get issues with PCT's regards tested drugs.
Many people in America like K W, may be aware of a Breast Cancer drug by the name of Herceptin. Unless it goes by another generic name in the U.S.
Herceptin was last year stocked in hospital facilties, but although it was already used in the U.S, due to 2 year trials not being close to finalisation here, Herceptin was not usable.
Someone did however win their right to have Herceptin, after it was revealed the drug, could give her 10 more years, and maybe a full lifespan, with no Breast Cancer, but as she would have to wait another 12 months, by that time the Cancer spread would be untreatable, condemning her to death.
The argument was put forward, in favour of potentially, (as of then), unconfirmed side effects.
The counter-argument being when you could die from Breast Cancer screw side effects, even if you go partially blind for example but live for decades more, better that than use a weaker alternative, and most likely suffer a 99% chance, of being dead inside of 5-10 years for sure.
Another problem here is things like Locums. Locums work part-time but get twice as much, as effectively doctoring can be done for 50% of every month with eqivalent pay as regular doctors, owing to Locums being mobile, and not practicing in a particular hospital or GP's, (General practicioners) surgery full time. So potentially it's more lucrative.
Although some doctors are on rotas anyway, so after 2-3 years, they may be reassigned to another hospital in the local area, or if they choose to move, or practice a specific type of hospital medicine not catered for at their current hospital.
Plus add to that private doctors, who can make more money, and the NHS has it's problems.
However for the most part, unless you go private, the NHS is free, and just funded by taxes and as explained above, NIC's deducted from pay via the employer, thus allowing most taxpayers, not to have to have any direct dealings, with tax authorities, offices etc etc, on such an issue.
Sometimes waiting times are long, and mistakes are made, and often patients in an out patients waiting are categorised. Obviously a gun shot vicitim, or someone who accidentally sliced off a Thumb at work for example, will get faster treatment than someone who is waiting, with a pulled Groin muscle.
Though mistakes are made, hence a few years ago, an old man lay on trolley for 6 hours and died.
Or other problems occur when people are wrongly diagnosed, and told they have a life threatening condition when they don't, or don't when they do.
One person a while back received, (I think a child), some Cancer treatment, and was overdosed on Radiation, causing permanent damage, and possibly eventual death if I remember correctly.
This system isn't perfect, but it's possibly the best in the world, and I wouldn't complain too much about it, except when it goes wrong sometimes
.I know it's no picnic often for the people who work in it, but I cannot comment too much on that.
The underlying threat/fear is socialism itself
Any country that has to feed off capitalists to pay for social(ist) programs are leeches.
Socialism needs capitalists to make the money but capitalists dont need socialists.
If you beleive in socialism then put your money where your mouth is.
GIVE YOUR WHOLE PAYCHECK TO THE GOVERNMENT ( since you know they know whats best for you/the people) and let them dish out what they think is best for all your needs.
If you dont like that idea except for heathcare ( or your own "pet project") then your principles are dishonest.
Socialism needs capitalists to make the money but capitalists dont need socialists.
If you beleive in socialism then put your money where your mouth is.
GIVE YOUR WHOLE PAYCHECK TO THE GOVERNMENT ( since you know they know whats best for you/the people) and let them dish out what they think is best for all your needs.
If you dont like that idea except for heathcare ( or your own "pet project") then your principles are dishonest.
Alright then, Jch, you obviously have the cahonies, to tear a massive strip off your governments health agenda, and those seemingly complicit and compliant with it, but I don't see a whole lot of skinny on how it should be done.
I think you've spoken out enough about the apparent, wrongs, failings, inhuman nature of said system, so what's your social contradiction, what's your response to your own damning conclusions / thoughts?
I'd be interested to see the flip side of your analytical coin. Presuming it's not double headed of course.
I think you've spoken out enough about the apparent, wrongs, failings, inhuman nature of said system, so what's your social contradiction, what's your response to your own damning conclusions / thoughts?
I'd be interested to see the flip side of your analytical coin. Presuming it's not double headed of course.
Sound like the politically correct type(s) who fear
disscusion as they cannot defeat the argument with sound logic and have to rely on emotion/fear/intimadation etc anything but sound logical reasoning.
Just remember who the "leaders" of socialism have been throughout history:
Stalin/hitler/castro/clinton etc
Killers of peoples mind/ body and/or spirit!!
Anyone else the same as the "hysterical" one or can defeat reasoning???
Yep, thats what I thought
Just remember who the "leaders" of socialism have been throughout history:
Stalin/hitler/castro/clinton etc
Killers of peoples mind/ body and/or spirit!!
Anyone else the same as the "hysterical" one or can defeat reasoning???
Yep, thats what I thought